Fallon¹

BEGINNING OF DIALOGUE                                              

 

It is the set of the Tonight Show. We are returning from a commercial break.

 

FALLON

We have a very special guest tonight, folks. Coming home from the book tour for his acclaimed new dialogue, the Phaedrus, join me in welcoming to the stage: Plato!

 

Screaming applause. The band kicks off a jazzy tune. PLATO is seen stepping out from a curtain in a navy suit and glasses. He gives a confident wave, then saunters over to shake hands with the FALLON, Jimmy Fallon. They stand there for a bit, nodding and smiling, then do the vaguely Midwestern talk show “well then!” interaction and sit down.

 

FALLON

Plato!

 

Cheers again.

 

We’re so thrilled to have you on the show tonight! Tell me, how was life on the road?

 

PLATO

It was good! I had many fruitful conversations with fans², and I continue to be amazed by the efficacy of modern transportation. 

 

FALLON

Impressive, isn’t it?

 

PLATO

Except when my flights are delayed. 

 

Audience laughs.

 

FALLON

I guess that’s the price to pay. So, Plato, I have to tell you– I loved the book, I really did. 

 

PLATO

Well, I’m glad to hear it.

 

FALLON

I did have a couple questions though. And I was wondering… if you’d be the inaugural guest for my new feature… Book Talk.

 

Applause. A cool graphic flashes across the screen, showing Jimmy Fallon picking up a book in a cartoon landscape, reading intensely, then making a series of impassioned phone calls. Ends with a title card: “The Tonight Show presents: Book Talk!”

 

PLATO

I’m honored.

 

FALLON

I’m going to start with an introduction for the folks at home who haven’t made it out to the bookstore just yet. This book–

 

PLATO

Dialogue.

 

FALLON

Yes, this book is a dialogue in Ancient Greece between two people, Phaedrus and Socrates. Now, Socrates is a recurring character in your work–

 

PLATO

He taught me everything I knew.

 

FALLON

He’s a philosopher in Ancient Greece who goes around showing people that they really don’t know as much as they think. And then there’s Phaedrus, who’s this young guy, very pretty, and he’s hanging out with Socrates outside of the city walls, out in the country. And my first question for you is about the setting. Why the country?

 

PLATO

Well, as mentioned in the text, this is a site associated with mysticism. There’s uh, some sort of legend about a girl being abducted by a wind god, and you have to keep in mind the cultural personification of the wilderness and how that would have translated into this perception of being past the barriers of civilization. For instance, the god Pan, whose dominion ranged over nature, was also involved with mania, this concept of wildness and sensuality. The woods are precarious and delightedly thrilling. There’s a heightened emotionality in their discussion, and Socrates is communicating that outside the walls they can be freer and more genuine.

 

FALLON

And hidden away from prying eyes.

 

PLATO

They are alone, yes. But many of my dialogues are one-on-one.

 

FALLON

They’re in this secluded, intimate setting, and they’re talking about love. You see, Phaedrus is a hot commodity. Lysias, a respected orator–that means he gives speeches, he’s a politician–is trying to seduce Phaedrus. And the method of seduction is very interesting: it’s almost like a manipulation tactic. He tells Phaedrus, that when he chooses a lover, because that’s what young men do in Ancient Greece, that when he chooses, he should pick someone who doesn’t love him. And this is because a non-lover will treat him better than someone who does love him. (pause) So, what’s up with that?

 

PLATO

With… ah, with what Lysias is saying?

 

FALLON

Yeah, all the stuff about eye-for-an-eye, the possessiveness, the social shame. 

 

PLATO 

I, ah– Are you asking about the meaning, or the character of Lysias?

 

FALLON

What it’s all really… (expansive arm gesture) about.

 

PLATO

You want me to… explain the dialogue to you? It’s all in there if you read³ it.

 

FALLON

Alright, then I’ll walk through what I understood, and you can tell me if I’m getting it wrong. Lysias wants Phaedrus, because everyone wants Phaedrus as their eromenos: that’s the younger partner, for those of us who took Spanish, instead of Ancient Greek. (Audience laughs) And because everyone else is fawning over him, telling Phaedrus how much they love him, and how great he is, Lysias decides to say that he doesn’t like Phaedrus, or at least not like that, which makes him the best choice.

 

PLATO

That is how Lysias presents his argument, yes.

 

FALLON

But does he actually like Phaedrus? Why else would he want to be Phaedrus’s erastes? 

 

PLATO

You have to think about the historical context. Pederasty was never a strictly interpersonal relationship: it conferred social and political capital to the younger party, and created an intellectual relationship between the two, as the older party instructs the younger in the way of virtue. All those who profess to love Phaedrus are venturing beyond the strict barriers of rationality, which could be risky. Lysias’ commitment to reason promises his adherence to the traditional pederastic model, meaning that he’s the safer choice for Phaedrus.

 

FALLON

But does he really not love Phaedrus? Why else go through all this trouble of proving himself?

 

PLATO

And that’s a good question you’re asking.

 

Pause.

 

FALLON

Well? Are you going to answer it?

 

PLATO

What matters more is what Socrates makes of what Lysias thinks.

 

FALLON

Always blame Socrates!

 

PLATO

I’m not going to hand anyone an interpretation. But I would encourage readers to really reflect on what Lysias is saying, and to determine for themselves what they want to think is true. He’s talking about real-life things: worrying that your partner will get bored of you and break up with you, or that they’ll be petty for days after a fight, and start accusing you of being selfish, that you never pay for coffee and you keep forgetting to do the laundry, instead of telling you what’s actually wrong. It’s not the type of relationship to aspire to, but conflict happens.

 

FALLON

And Lysias calls these sorts of things love?

 

PLATO

Well, Lysias is a bit pessimistic. 

 

FALLON

And he doesn’t forget to add that Phaedrus will have more options if he extends his suitors to non-lovers. Is Lysias looking out for Phaedrus? Is he displaying that he, Lysias, will always have Phaedrus’s best interests at heart, unlike all those other liars out there who only want him for his body?

 

PLATO

Now I believe you read it!

 

The audience laughs.

 

FALLON

Where I get confused is why this would make Lysias a better option. The lovers, even if they come with the everyday struggles relationships face, are still committed to Phaedrus because of their feelings for him. If he goes with a non-lover, what’s to stop that person from waking up one day and deciding Phaedrus isn’t worth the trouble, and just walking away?

 

PLATO

I think you’re having trouble seeing pederasty as a concept rooted in virtue. (Incredulous audience sounds) I know, with the past few thousand years, it’s rather difficult. But pederasty is supposed to be this important relationship for establishing the young man’s virtuous character and teaching him how to partake in citizenship. For the Greeks, he who is virtuous is designated as such because he cannot act otherwise than guided by virtue. If the non-lover is virtuous, then he will do good by Phaedrus. If he is not, then Phaedrus shouldn’t be picking him anyway.

 

 FALLON

I’m getting the sense we won’t get a real answer on Lysias’s true motives. Fine, Plato, I’ll let you have your mysteries.

 

PLATO

Much obliged.

 

FALLON

And Socrates does have opinions on Lysias, which we’ll get to after this break. But Plato, I wanted to do something fun first. I’m honestly still pretty confused on this pederastic relationship stuff, so I’ve had my interns prepare a thought exercise for you (Plato looks really excited): we’re going to think through Phaedrus’s five-year plan.

 

PLATO’s face falls. Then he recovers.

 

PLATO, sarcastic 

Gee, whiz.

 

FALLON

Three, two one: let’s go! What are Phaedrus’s long-term goals?

 

PLATO

To develop his virtue and gain as much political power⁴ as possible.

 

FALLON

Okay, strong start! What kind of reasonable progress should he expect?

 

PLATO

Well, the virtue should develop fully in about eight years if he has a suitable erastes mentor, and he can start to assemble allies during that period, but the bulk of the power would have to be established later, when he can justify taking control of the military.

 

FALLON

So five years might be a little short. Can we get a breakdown of those first eight years?

 

PLATO, warming to the topic

Well, much of it depends on the erastes, and how enlightened he is when the pair begin their relationship. First, the erastes will love Phaedrus for his physical and emotional characteristics. Then, his mind will be opened to the beauty of the world, and he will love everyone in it–although Phaedrus will remain special to him–

 

FALLON, speechless

Is this… uh, sorry are they–?

 

PLATO, continuing

Then the erastes will lose this inclination towards physical desires, and can start to focus on Phaedrus’s mind, taking care to educate him and nurture his philosophical spirit.

 

FALLON

The virtue! Okay great, the virtue happens after the uh, desire… and I’m sorry, you said that others were involved as well..?

 

PLATO, blasé 

It’s not quite as exciting: aesthetic appreciation. Mostly. But of course the stage after involves loving and exploring all human minds, and then we get up to the political scale, and I don’t want to spoil this too much for whoever wrote your notes since they clearly only got so far, but it gets celestial towards the end.

 

FALLON

The end of the five-year plan…?

 

PLATO, pointedly

I don’t know why you’re still talking.

 

FALLON

We’ll be right back after this break.

 

The camera pans out into the studio, not before we see PLATO shaking his head. And the screen goes to ads.

 

Fade in some minutes later to the show’s theme being played. The tension in the studio has lessened. We’re back!

 

FALLON

Good evening! For those of you joining us, I’m here with acclaimed author Plato, detangling the many complexities of his latest work, the Phaedrus.

 

PLATO

I am indeed still here.

 

FALLON

I want to start us back up again at Socrates’ response. After the first section, Socrates is being amazingly condescending–it’s quite funny–telling Phaedrus that Lysias’ argument is terrible, that he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about and doesn’t believe in his argument. And I find that interesting, that amateur philosophers have stayed exactly the same over the millennia.

 

PLATO

Yes, there will always be people who like to take an idea and thread a whole conversation out of it. But it generally falls apart, because philosophy is about where the truth lies, and if you’re not coming from a place of truth and honest intellectual pursuit, your efforts will be easily dismissed.

 

FALLON

And Socrates brings up this idea which makes a lot of sense to me, that Lysias is not actually a non-lover, that he’s just saying things to try to get Phaedrus to pick him. But where you lose me is when Socrates agrees with Lysias about how lovers are bad in all of these gruesome ways. Are we just not supposed to date, then? 

 

PLATO

I think I see where you’re going wrong. (pause)

 

FALLON

Well...? Are you going to tell me?

 

PLATO

You’re assuming that when Socrates says that a lover will be wild with jealousy, he means someone who’s an option for Phaedrus. But Phaedrus won’t go for anyone with so little control over emotions: they aren’t virtuous enough for him.

 

FALLON

So he should go for a non-lover who is virtuous?

 

PLATO

Ah, but Socrates is telling us that the non-lover isn’t real. 

 

FALLON

Let me walk through this again: Phaedrus can only choose someone who loves him, because non-lovers are lovers in disguise.

 

PLATO

Yes.

 

FALLON 

But lovers will treat him poorly, because they might be consumed by jealousy or pettiness.

 

PLATO

Maybe.

 

FALLON

Maybe?

 

PLATO

If they’re the wrong type of lover.

 

FALLON

There’s a right kind?

 

PLATO

That’s the whole point of Socrates’ speech. I thought whoever wrote your notes would read it.

 

Audience gasps.

 

FALLON

Okay, ah, just– just tell me about the right kind.

 

PLATO

The Greeks had many words for love, that’s pretty well-known. But in this speech, Socrates focuses on two sorts: a wild, base love driven by mania, this sense of madness and uncontrolled emotion, and another love which rests on self-possession, sophrosune. He who loves with mania will spread around chaos and misery: that’s why Socrates warns against lovers. 

 

FALLON

Where does eros fall into this?

 

PLATO

Eros is the name of the love ruled by mania. 

 

FALLON

I thought eros was about romantic sexual love.

 

PLATO

It is.

 

FALLON

So are the other types non-sexual?

 

PLATO

Not exactly, but they’re not fully driven by sexual desire. That’s a difficult point to get at, how much desire was actually operating and the part played in the daily occurrences of such relationships.

 

FALLON

They want it, but they’re not supposed to talk about it.

 

PLATO

Or maybe they don’t care. But yes, there’s an element that often goes unspoken, and it’s a difficult omission because centuries of Puritan rhetoric surround discussions of sexuality, and our modern perspective needs to label any such relations as good or bad before we make up our minds about the rest of the relationship.

 

FALLON

And going back to that perspective issue, there’s a section on manipulation to retain control over the eromenos that I found particularly disturbing: that a lover will delight in finding defects in the boy, and ruin the development of his virtue to better suit the lover’s whims. 

 

PLATO

Well, Socrates is warning against getting into the wrong type of relationship.

 

FALLON

So we should all want to be in the self-control relationship, where there’s less room for bad things to happen. Isn’t it kind of disappointing to be in a relationship without passion?

 

PLATO

I suppose that’s your reading of the text. I don’t know whether the eromenos would see it that way, since this isn’t the same as dating or marriage for us. They’re forming a profound, meaningful friendship that they’ll carry with them for the rest of their lives, and it may be sexual for now, but that won’t last as the eromenos becomes a man in his own right and starts conducting his own affairs, and the erastes come to love the mind instead of the body.

 

FALLON

It feels like there are questions going unanswered.

 

PLATO

I can’t say anything much, but there might be a continuation in the works. 

 

FALLON

Then I suppose I’ll have to wait a while to understand. There’s just one more topic I’d like to bring up, and then I’ll let you go. Now, Martha Nussbaum⁵ has made an interesting analogy to Lysias and the non-lover. She compares Phaedrus going for the one who does not love him but can bring him good things, political advancement, moral development, friendship, to a woman considering whether to sleep with her boss to get a promotion.

 

PLATO

Yeah. I don’t like that.

 

FALLON

I mean, some of this pederasty stuff is kind of icky.

 

PLATO

Yes, it’s icky. But it exists within a framework where it’s a standard part of growing up and taking part in democracy: reaping the benefits of adulthood. The agents want to have that education. In the feminist scenario, it’s not about having an intellectual or emotional relationship, like a mentorship that could someday yield a promotion, but purely an exchange of goods. Although we don’t really have objective records about whether pederasty was a desired relationship for the eromenos, we do have overwhelming evidence that people don’t like sexual coercion in the workplace. And that’s interesting, because the feminist is trying to break through a structure that wasn’t designed for her, with significant personal risk, and the eromenos candidates are doing what all other citizens have before them: They know that they’ll end up just fine. Even if what she’s getting at is more of an issue of lack of choice, it completely undermines the existing structure that I’m trying to convey. I’m telling a story about what makes good relationships, and she’s bringing up something that isn’t a relationship at all.

 

FALLON

You’re making these different points, and hers undermines important parts of your worldview. Got it. But I do have to wonder about these two types of love. Can’t rational people have their moments? People fight and make up, and very few are purely evil. 

 

PLATO

Again, remember that the virtuous man is always virtuous.

 

FALLON

Okay then. Before you go, I have another game for you (PLATO looks murderous): it’s called–

 

A graphic hovers in front of the image. 

 

AUDIENCE, reading off a screen,

Red flag, green flag!

 

FALLON

Plato, I have–

 

PLATO, cutting in

I’m really not interested.

 

FALLON

Well, we were hoping to ask you about relationship red flags, since I’m clearly a little lost about what’s going on between Phaedrus and Lysias, and that’s not even thinking about Phaedrus and Socra–

 

PLATO

Does it matter?

 

FALLON

How your characters feel about each other? Of course!

 

PLATO 

I don’t see why it should.

 

FALLON

I mean… (pause) Well, if you asked me to explain Pride and Prejudice without the romantic parts, I don’t know what you’d be taking away.

 

PLATO

But this—this isn’t a romance novel! It’s a dialogue. It’s an exchange of ideas.

 

FALLON

Well, it seems to me, and I’m willing to bet more than a few other readers out there, that they’re talking about love because they’re interested in each other. But I still don’t know whether Lysias is actually into Phaedrus and saying he’s not, (Plato starts muttering but Fallon continues) or if he really doesn’t care but wants a relationship anyway, and your black-and-white, this-or-that options for the types of love don’t give us a real answer. And what about Socrates? Is his own speech a way of besting Lysias, of shooting his shot with Phaedrus?

 

PLATO

You’re not listening! They’re doing philosophy. They’re characters in a dialogue, and if there’s a narrative, that’s to make the ideas clearer, which you have evidently failed to grasp. What do you need, a diagram? You can think Lysias actually loves Phaedrus—in the wrong way—if you believe Socrates, or you can think Lysias loves him—in the right way—if you believe in Socrates’ division of love, or you can believe in nothing at all and decide Lysias is just giving a speech for the sake of it. It doesn’t matter! I can’t give you one answer, because your answer shows your own bias, which you lack the cognitive skills to even have!

 

FALLON, deeply offended but putting on a smile,

What an insightful contribution. Plato, I want to thank you again for being here tonight. Let’s hear it! (Confused audience applause.) We’ll be back soon with Wes Anderson to discuss his upcoming adaptation of the Bible.

 

Music blares. We see PLATO completely refuse to engage in pretend conversation with FALLON, stand up and walk off the set through the audience. FALLON is baffled. We go to commercial.

 

END OF DIALOGUE